{"id":28135,"date":"2016-12-15T13:06:10","date_gmt":"2016-12-15T13:06:10","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/www.musicbusinessworldwide.com\/?p=28135"},"modified":"2025-12-03T18:25:26","modified_gmt":"2025-12-03T18:25:26","slug":"in-the-music-business-you-have-to-out-hustle-everyone","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/www.musicbusinessworldwide.com\/in-the-music-business-you-have-to-out-hustle-everyone\/","title":{"rendered":"Atlantic Records’ Julie Greenwald: ‘It’s not enough to be smart. You have to be smart… and out-hustle everyone’"},"content":{"rendered":"

“I live by karma and I totally believe in doing right by this world. I’m in this job for the right reasons.”<\/em><\/p>\n

Julie Greenwald has long been determined to make a positive difference in people’s lives.<\/p>\n

Once upon a time – back when she was sure she’d end up a political lobbyist or human rights lawyer – that meant working in soup kitchens in New Orleans or educating underprivileged kids as part of the ‘Teach For America’ program.<\/p>\n

Since meeting Lyor Cohen<\/a> in 1992, though, she’s channeled this advocacy for human decency (and refusal to be cowed by dodgy odds) towards the music business.<\/p>\n

It’s writ large in the devoted manner in which she talks about her artists and her staff at Atlantic Records<\/a>, who are celebrating a golden year in 2016.<\/p>\n

And it’s literally writ large in her New York corner office – where, on the far wall from her desk, hangs a large canvas from local artist Michael Scoggins.<\/p>\n

There, spelled out in repeated schoolboy scrawl, you’ll find the affirmation with which Greenwald vanquishes the dark personality pitfalls of the entertainment industry:<\/p>\n

‘I’m still a good person. I’m still a good person. I’m still a good person…’<\/em><\/p>\n

\n

2016 marks Greenwald’s 12th year running Atlantic in tandem with A&R supremo – and Ahmet Ertegun prot\u00e9g\u00e9 – Craig Kallman<\/a>.<\/p>\n

It’s been one for the history books.<\/p>\n

Although Greenwald protests that she and Kallman (pictured) never look at market share figures, her bosses – Warner CEO Steve Cooper and owner Len Blavatnik – must like what they see.<\/p>\n

Atlantic is the only label in the US this year to have had four albums across Gold & Platinum certified by the RIAA (Kevin Gates – Islah; Suicide Squad OST; Charlie Puth – Nine-Track Mind; and Panic! At The Disco – Death Of A Bachelor).<\/p>\n

It’s also had more singles certified by the RIAA in 2016 than any of its competitors.<\/p>\n

In addition, Atlantic’s got a big interest in the 2017 Grammys, with 18 nominations across acts such as Twenty One Pilots (Record Of The Year; Best Rock Performance; Best Rock Song; Best Pop Duo\/Group Performance), Panic! At The Disco (Best Rock Album) and surprise Album Of the Year nominee Sturgill Simpson.<\/p>\n

The blend of A&R specialist Kallman – intrepid discoverer, meticulous refiner – and marketing\/promo specialist Greenwald – strategic loudspeaker, unapologetic champion – is paying dividends.<\/p>\n

<\/a><\/i><\/a><\/a><\/figure>\n
\n

If you’d have visited the Elka pharmacy in upstate New York in the mid-’90s, you wouldn’t have been able to duck your reflection.<\/p>\n

Julie Greenwald’s parents (“Catskills Jews”) spent their professional lives running medical retail outlets.<\/p>\n

They were understandably apprehensive when Greenwald jacked in her political aspirations to work with Lyor Cohen – first at Rush Management and then Def Jam.<\/p>\n

To reassure her folks this professional dalliance wasn’t without merit, Greenwald began sending Gold and Platinum discs home in the post – from Redman to Jay Z, Method Man and DMX.<\/p>\n

“He said: ‘Daughter, there are only two types of people who carry beepers – doctors and drug dealers…'”<\/p>\n

Julie Greenwald<\/span><\/p><\/blockquote>\n

One-by-one, they proudly began decorating Elka’s walls.<\/p>\n

“I came home to visit my parents and Lyor had just given me a numerical pager,” Greenwald recalls of her early months in the music business.<\/p>\n

“I put it on the table and my father says to me: ‘What’s that?’ I said: ‘Oh it’s my beeper – I have to be accessible 24 hours a day.’<\/p>\n

“He says: ‘Daughter, there’s only two types of people that carry beepers: doctors and drug dealers. And I know I didn’t send you to medical school…'”<\/p>\n

\n
<\/a><\/i><\/a><\/a><\/figure>\n

Greenwald found a kindred spirit in Lyor Cohen.<\/p>\n

She initially worked a summer job as his assistant, before joining Def Jam’s promotions department – and executing an instant impact.<\/p>\n

“Def Jam was incredibly chaotic at that time,” says Greenwald. “I saw an opportunity to make it more efficient. I programmed the fax machine so with one button you could hit every radio station. I also wrote a proposal covering why we should get computers; literally everyone was still writing reports on typewriters.”<\/p>\n

Before long, Greenwald had climbed to GM of Def Jam’s promotions department, and, by 1994, was heading up marketing at the label.<\/p>\n

“A lot of people were scared of Lyor but I wasn’t.”<\/p>\n

Julie Greenwald<\/span><\/p><\/blockquote>\n

She says her and Cohen made an “incredible pair” – but it wasn’t a relationship without some heavily audible run-ins.<\/p>\n

“A lot of people were scared of Lyor but I wasn’t,” says Greenwald. “I loved his energy.<\/p>\n

“We would get into crazy arguments – we didn’t hold back. Neither of us wanted to spend money on something that would end up getting shelved. We would go down swinging!”<\/p>\n

She adds: “I was 22 years old and learning about hip-hop music and artist development from the guy who was the road manager for Run DMC and The Beastie Boys. Best teacher ever.”<\/p>\n

\n
<\/a><\/i><\/a><\/a><\/figure>

Greenwald stayed loyal to Cohen throughout Def Jam’s transition into Universal\/Polygram, where she eventually rose to President of Island \/ EVP of the Island Def Jam Music Group in 2002.<\/p>\n

Two years later, she followed her mentor out of Universal to Warner Music Group, where she was named President of Atlantic Records.<\/p>\n

Greenwald spearheaded a genuinely pioneering online-first strategy at the company, which became the first major label to cross the threshold of 50% digital revenue.<\/p>\n

In 2006, Greenwald was named co-Chairman\/COO of Atlantic, which has broken acts under her and Craig Kallman’s guidance including Bruno Mars, Ed Sheeran, Wiz Khalifa, Trey Songz, Flo Rida, James Blunt and Cee Lo Green.<\/p>\n

In our in-depth Q&A below, MBW asks Greenwald about the forces behind Atlantic’s success, her long-standing partnership with Kallman, Lyor Cohen’s attributes as a boss – and why streaming is sorting ‘the men from the boys’ when it comes to breaking acts…<\/p>\n

\n
Lyor Cohen clearly had a mammoth impact on your career. Is there anything tangible he taught you that still use today?<\/h6>\n

He’s taught me so much. Signing stars, for example: he didn’t believe you could Frankenstein together a star, but that you had to bump into one – then give them the tools and resources they need to develop.<\/p>\n

Lyor didn’t believe you could just take an attractive looking person, give them the right songs and then, voila, produce something great.<\/p>\n

“Lyor didn’t believe you could Frankenstein together a star.”<\/p><\/blockquote>\n

He always wanted to sign real artists with a real point of view who could write. To this day I’m still attracted to artists like that.<\/p>\n

A lot of times that means I’m attracted to stuff that’s going to be really hard to break, but I love that challenge.<\/p>\n

\n
<\/a><\/i><\/a><\/figure>Does that sum up Atlantic: signing artists which look difficult to break on paper… and then breaking them?<\/h6>\n

Atlantic is about signing stuff that we love, however long the road is going to be.<\/p>\n

Sturgill Simpson being up for Album of The Year [at the Grammys] with a magnificent record reaffirms what we believe: sign unbelievable artists, and let’s go to work.<\/p>\n

“it’s never about market share for Craig and I.”<\/p><\/blockquote>\n

Def Jam had 14 artists at a time when we were killing it, going Gold and Platinum all the time. It showed you don’t need to be the biggest company in the world – you just need to be the best.<\/p>\n

That’s a mantra at Atlantic – it’s never about market share for Craig and I.<\/p>\n

\n
Is that really true though? You don’t even peek at market shares?<\/h6>\n

I never look at them.<\/p>\n

\n
It’s no secret that Sony and Universal – corporately – are big into market shares, and their label heads all know about it. What about your bosses?<\/h6>\n

Steve [Cooper] and Len [Blavatnik] have never once asked me about market share. Ever.<\/p>\n

I like the fact we don’t have to worry about size.<\/p>\n

When you’re not the biggest, you don’t talk about being the biggest. You talk about innovation and how you can get better.<\/p>\n

\n
Is it reassuring or scary that Len Blavatnik owns everything at WMG?<\/h6>\n

Think about this: he owns the company, hopefully he’s going to have it in his family for his children and grandchildren. So what’s important to him, then?<\/p>\n

Longevity and having career artists right? It’s not about flipping a quick profit.<\/p>\n

“When you’re not the biggest, you don’t talk about being the biggest. You talk about innovation and how you can get better.”<\/p><\/blockquote>\n

Don’t get me wrong, I have to run a smart business – I want to keep hiring more people and I want to keep paying people.<\/p>\n

But as far as making short-term decisions? No.<\/p>\n

That’s the nice thing about having one owner: he wants you to make long-term bets on quality copyrights that are going to affect his business forever.<\/p>\n

\n
<\/a><\/i><\/a><\/figure>In terms of building and breaking those artists, is streaming working out for you?<\/h6>\n

Yes. I love streaming. In 2013 we pulled the handbrake on this company and said: we need to learn everything there is to know about streaming.<\/p>\n

We started re-organising ourselves, and it’s enabled us to take a much longer view.<\/p>\n

Streaming allows you to stay in the fight a very, very long time.<\/p>\n

We’re now monetizing artist development. Artist development used to all be one way [financially]. Now as soon as I put out a new song, we start to make money back.<\/p>\n

\n
<\/a><\/i><\/a><\/figure>The main criticism of streaming at the moment seems to be that it’s hard to break new artists, particularly breaking new album artists beyond a song. How do you meet that challenge?<\/h6>\n

There are people who don’t make compelling albums. And there are people who do make compelling albums.<\/p>\n

Sturgill made one. Twenty One Pilots made one. Melanie Martinez made one. You cannot fool the public.<\/p>\n

If you want to be an album artist on streaming [services], you have to make an unbelievable album.<\/p>\n

It’s separating the men from the boys.<\/p>\n

\n
Speaking of men and boys… the top of the music business is still uncommonly male-dominated. DOES IT EVER FEEL LIKE AN odd environment in that regard?<\/h6>\n

Listen, I’m 25 years in, and it’s always been an odd environment. I’ve spent many board meetings with a ton of men – I’m talking about the intimate smaller meetings with the top brass.<\/p>\n

Did I ever think it was a disadvantage? No, not for me personally. I only ever saw an opportunity to distinguish myself and be a different kind of leader.<\/p>\n

“I’m instinctually a mother. I take care of people.”<\/p><\/blockquote>\n

I’m instinctually a mother. I take care of people and I have great relationships with artists and my team.<\/p>\n

I saw a label say recently that their thing is: ‘We break artists’. And I thought: ‘Well, Atlantic nurtures<\/em> artists.’<\/p>\n

It’s more important for me to offer career longevity than to just split you open.<\/p>\n

\n
What advice would you give young executives who may have been inspired by your rise?<\/h6>\n

You’re going to have to work your ass off.<\/p>\n

We live in a day and age of instant gratification; everything is so available.<\/p>\n

I devoted my twenties to working 7 days a week, 24 hours a day. I didn’t get here by chance.<\/p>\n

“You’re going to have to work your ass off.”<\/p><\/blockquote>\n

You’re going to have to make serious choices if you want a career path like mine. It’s not about just being smart and resourceful. You have to be smart, resourceful and out-hustle everyone.<\/p>\n

As you get older in life as a woman, and you want to have the family conversation, that’s where you come to a real challenge; oh sh*t, how do I balance it all?<\/p>\n

Then you wake up one day and realize – there’s no such thing as balancing it all. You just do the best job you can.<\/p>\n

\n
<\/a><\/i><\/a><\/figure>We interviewed APG boss Mike Caren (pictured) the other week – he’s been with Atlantic for 20 years. Compared to some other major labels you don’t seem to have a high staff turnover here. Why do you think that is?<\/h6>\n

The only way I can help my company grow is by having better and better executives – so it’s partly about giving something back, but it’s also in our interest to help raise self-confident executives.<\/p>\n

I use every opportunity to teach my young staff to become my senior staff and it’s worked fantastically; one of the reasons we’re such a tight unit is because so many people here have been ‘home-grown’.<\/p>\n

I’m not trying to do stupid shit in the name of market share. I’m trying to run a very profitable company.<\/p>\n

\n
<\/a><\/i><\/a><\/figure>What did you learn from former fueled by ramen boss John Janick departing to Interscope?<\/h6>\n

I’m super-happy if the industry is populated with great thinkers who hopefully share our ethos.<\/p>\n

It’s a giant compliment when somebody takes one of your people and gives them a great job.<\/p>\n

John’s doing great and I\u2019m super proud of him.<\/p>\n

\n
You’ve been working together with Craig since March 2004. Partnerships at the top of the industry don’t always work out – especially when ego gets involved. Why hasn’t that happened at Atlantic?<\/h6>\n

It’s a wonderful partnership in the true sense of the word. We both need each other, we both complement each other – and we both like each other.<\/p>\n

“I’m not trying to do stupid shit in the name of market share. I’m trying to run a very profitable company.”<\/p><\/blockquote>\n

Craig’s the nicest guy on the planet – he’s very selfless.<\/p>\n

There’s no ego with Craig and I; it’s really all about the company and the artists.<\/p>\n

\n
You don’t ever have the thought: ‘It would be nice if this was just mine’?<\/h6>\n

Oh my God, no way!<\/p>\n

Listen, I grew up with Lyor and Kevin Liles [pictured] – there was always three of us. We had more fun than you could ever imagine.<\/p>\n

It’s so much better to have partners in crime. I never want to do this job by myself – ever.<\/p>\n

“As I say to people: ‘Just don’t burn the f*cking building down.'”<\/p><\/blockquote>\n

We’re a very flat organization at Atlantic – we all run it together. Everybody is making plays.<\/p>\n

Both Craig and I allow our people to make good decisions but also to make mistakes. That’s another thing I learned from Lyor: if you’re gonna make a mistake, it’s okay, just learn from it.<\/p>\n

As I say to people: ‘Just don’t burn the f*cking building down.’<\/p>\n

\n
If you could give the 22-year-old Julie who joined Def Jam some advice, what would it be?<\/h6>\n

That it’s okay to take the full amount of time for my maternity leave. You never get it back.<\/p>\n

I’d also tell her that you can find a little bit more time for yourself. I really didn’t have a personal life for a long time, it was just work, work, work.<\/p>\n

It wasn’t until my 30s that I realized I needed to have a personal life as well as a professional life.<\/p>\n

\n
ATLANTIC WAS A PIONEER OF THE ‘360’ model. Does it still work for artists and for Atlantic?<\/h6>\n

Personally, I love it. Here’s why: when I sign a new artist, I get to dream. I get to dream that if I keep investing, regardless of what it looks like on paper, I don’t have to live by one P&L.<\/p>\n

360 allows that first album cycle to look a little funky on paper; we get to ‘over-invest’ in artists who are building on the road.<\/p>\n

“We sign our artists to 360 deals, but we pay it forward – it’s not a land-grab.”<\/p><\/blockquote>\n

We sign our artists to these deals, but we pay it forward – it’s not a land-grab.<\/p>\n

We have a full touring department, a tour marketing department, a whole merch company – we provide real services.<\/p>\n

\n
<\/a><\/i><\/a><\/figure>Has radio’s influence been diminished due to streaming? Does radio take up less of your thinking time than it used to?<\/h6>\n

It’s a different part of the equation now.<\/p>\n

When I have a brand new baby artist we don’t go straight to radio. First we build touring, streaming, YouTube… I want us to go in to radio with an army behind us, rather than just believing we have a hot song.<\/p>\n

“When I have a brand new baby artist we don’t go straight to radio. We build touring, streaming, YouTube…”<\/p><\/blockquote>\n

Ultimately radio is still a very important part of the equation.<\/p>\n

But you can definitely have success without a – quote\/unquote – ‘radio hit’, and we’re not afraid of that.<\/p>\n

\n
Streaming exclusives are a hot button issue this year – not least post-Frank Ocean-Gate. What’s your view?<\/h6>\n

If someone’s paying $9.99-a-month and something’s not there, I know how bummed out I would be.<\/p>\n

I try to explain to our artists that we’re too young of an industry to have consumers feel that way.<\/p>\n

“If someone’s paying $9.99-a-month and something’s not there, I know how bummed out I would be.”<\/p><\/blockquote>\n

The alternative is real quickly to go to [piracy]; it takes two seconds to go to that other website and get free stuff.<\/p>\n

Let’s reward the people who are throwing down the 10 bucks a month and leading the way.<\/p>\n

\n
<\/a><\/i><\/a><\/figure>What impact do you think Lyor Cohen’s going to have on YouTube?<\/h6>\n

I think he’s going to have a great impact.<\/p>\n

He knows both sides; he knows how to run a business but he also comes from the artist and label perspective, and he knows what we need to continue to keep growing our industry.<\/p>\n

“Lyor understands what the value proposition for artists and music is on YouTube.”<\/p><\/blockquote>\n

He understands what the value proposition for artists and music is on YouTube – he knows we bring real value to the platform, and what value they can offer us to.<\/p>\n

We’ve seen first-hand how we can use YouTube to break artists here. But Lyor also knows our artists need to be well compensated for the content they are creating.<\/p>\n

\n
What career ambitions do you have left?<\/h6>\n

It’s interesting you ask that. A few weeks ago, after the election, I said I\u2019ll charter a bus if there are enough people from the label going down on January 21 to march on Washington.<\/p>\n

I’m a woman, I have a daughter. Now is the time to not just be passive.<\/p>\n

\n
Presumably you’re saying you’re a little fearful of the political future of the United States?<\/h6>\n

I definitely have a lot of fears. We’ve just come off of eight years of a great president.<\/p>\n

Also, I’m Jewish. I just bought a house in Brooklyn Heights and last month there were swastikas painted in the park just off it, right near where it said ‘go Trump!’.<\/p>\n

It’s not that the guy’s a racist, but all these feelings swirled up that weren’t apparent before.<\/p>\n

I worry about our rights as women, Jews and minorities – and especially about the rights of those who are less fortunate in our society.<\/p>\n

\n

Look out for an exclusive interview on MBW with Julie Greenwald’s partner at the top of Atlantic, Craig Kallman, next week.<\/em><\/p>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"

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