{"id":228020,"date":"2025-04-07T14:43:40","date_gmt":"2025-04-07T13:43:40","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/www.musicbusinessworldwide.com\/?p=228020"},"modified":"2025-04-07T16:59:18","modified_gmt":"2025-04-07T15:59:18","slug":"per-sundin-on-pophouses-1bn-ambitions-in-music-rights-we-dont-buy-catalogs-to-put-them-on-a-shelf","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/www.musicbusinessworldwide.com\/per-sundin-on-pophouses-1bn-ambitions-in-music-rights-we-dont-buy-catalogs-to-put-them-on-a-shelf\/","title":{"rendered":"Per Sundin on Pophouse’s $1bn+ ambitions in music rights: ‘We don’t buy catalogs to put them on a shelf.’"},"content":{"rendered":"

MBW\u2019s World Leaders is a regular series in which we turn the spotlight toward some of the most influential industry figures overseeing key international markets. In this feature, we speak to Per Sundin, CEO of Pophouse. World Leaders is supported by SoundExchange<\/a>.<\/p>\n

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There\u2019s a lot of noise emanating from Pophouse Entertainment\u2019s Stockholm headquarters \u2014 and it sounds like more than a billion dollars.<\/p>\n

Pophouse announced last week that it has raised over \u20ac1 billion for its debut fund, marking a significant moment in the European \u2014 and global \u2014 music rights investment landscape.<\/p>\n

In addition to the main \u20ac1 billion fund, Pophouse raised over \u20ac200 million follow-on capital via dedicated co-investment vehicles, bringing the total raised to over \u20ac1.2 billion (USD $1.3bn<\/strong>).<\/p>\n

This capital raise establishes Pophouse \u2014 which has offices in Stockholm and London \u2014 as a formidable player in music investment, with what it describes as “one of the largest first-time private equity funds raised in Europe in the last decade”.<\/p>\n

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The Sweden-headquartered company, co-founded by ABBA\u2019s Bj\u00f6rn Ulvaeus and EQT founder Conni Jonsson, has already deployed 30% of its fund through deals with artists such as KISS, Cyndi Lauper, and Swedish electronic dance music icons Avicii and Swedish House Mafia.<\/p>\n

If you follow the math, that means Pophouse still has around $900 million left to spend on catalog deals. The company tells MBW<\/em> that it plans to acquire between four and six catalogs over the next four to five years.<\/p>\n

Given the reported $300 million value of Pophouse’s KISS deal<\/a> last year, it\u2019s fair to assume we\u2019ll see a few eight-figure \u2013 or even nine-figure \u2013 catalogs coming under Pophouse’s ownership soon.<\/p>\n

Pophouse said last week that it is already pursuing additional partnerships with \u201csome of the world\u2019s most recognizable and influential names in the global music industry.\u201d<\/p>\n

But Pophouse isn\u2019t just another music rights investment company.<\/p>\n

Under CEO Per Sundin \u2014 a former Universal Music executive who previously headed UMG\u2019s Nordic region \u2014 the company\u2019s strategy extends beyond passive catalog ownership.<\/p>\n

Pophouse employs what it calls an \u201cartist-centric\u201d approach, targeting three essential rights in music: publishing, recordings, and name, image, and likeness (NIL) rights.<\/p>\n

\u201cFor us, it\u2019s about looking at catalogs we can do something with \u2014 not just put them on a shelf,\u201d says Sundin. \u201cThat\u2019s what differentiates us from others.<\/p>\n

\u201cWe call it our \u2018value-add process\u2019 \u2014 looking at different tools we can use to showcase, amplify, and enhance the songs in front of new audiences.\u201d<\/p>\n

The firm has also distinguished itself through high-profile immersive entertainment ventures.<\/p>\n

Although Pophouse is most commonly associated with the wildly popular ABBA Voyage<\/em> avatar show (operated by<\/a> separate UK-based holding company Aniara Ltd.), the firm\u2019s investment portfolio includes various other immersive productions like The Avicii Experience<\/em> in Stockholm, Mamma Mia! The Party<\/em>, ABBA The Museum<\/em>, and the soon-to-be-launched KISS avatar show in Las Vegas.<\/p>\n

Speaking exclusively to MBW, Per Sundin reveals what sets Pophouse apart from other music investment firms, and shares his thoughts on the future of catalog investment…<\/p>\n

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WHAT DOES CLOSING POPHOUSE\u2019S DeBUT FUND MEAN FOR YOUR LONG-TERM STRATEGY, ESPECIALLY IN TODAY’S CHALLENGING ENVIRONMENT FOR PRIVATE CAPITAL RAISES?<\/strong><\/h6>\n

It was bumpy in the beginning. We had to explain that this is a new asset class, but it\u2019s totally uncorrelated to inflation and interest rates. The more we explained it, the more interest we received \u2014 though some thought it sounded too good to be true. You have to look at music differently because it\u2019s an evergreen value. It\u2019s not like buying a company with a multiple on earnings or revenue.<\/p>\n

“If you own an estate or catalog of music, the revenue doesn\u2019t go down, it just continues.”<\/p><\/blockquote>\n

With the knowledge we have about the music industry \u2014 I spent 25 years in different roles, especially at Sony Music and Universal \u2014 I know the market setup. I\u2019ve been part of its heyday in the late \u201990s when we sold CDs like crazy. Then came Napster, KaZaA, and eventually The Pirate Bay \u2014 those were the darker years. Then Spotify arrived in 2008.<\/p>\n

When you sold a physical product, that was the end of the ecosystem. When you release something on a streaming platform, that\u2019s the start<\/em> of a relationship with the consumer. If you own an estate or catalog of music, the revenue doesn\u2019t go down, it just continues, with an average growth of 10\u201315% per year over the last three to five years.<\/p>\n

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<\/a><\/i><\/a><\/figure>How did investors respond to your pitch?<\/strong><\/h6>\n

When we started explaining this to different investors \u2014 from private equity to family offices, pension funds, and sovereign wealth funds \u2014 they became interested.<\/p>\n

The big pension funds usually don\u2019t go into first-time funds, so you typically start smaller. That\u2019s why it\u2019s shocking to a lot of people \u2014 and fantastic for us \u2014 that major institutions believe in our business model.<\/p>\n

“KISS was a game-changer for us. Everyone started asking about what we\u2019re doing and how we do it.”<\/p><\/blockquote>\n

We bought Swedish House Mafia<\/a>, Avicii<\/a>, and then Cyndi Lauper<\/a>. Shortly after that, we bought KISS<\/a>. Being a Swedish company buying Swedish assets wasn\u2019t really a big thing.<\/p>\n

But with Cyndi Lauper \u2014 and especially KISS \u2014 that was a game-changer for us. Everyone started asking about what we\u2019re doing and how we do it. From there, it was just a fantastic rush.<\/p>\n

We also hired Natalia Fontecha as Partner and Head of Capital Raising & Investor Relations and she\u2019s been fantastic.<\/p>\n

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YOU MENTIONED SOME OF THOSE EARLY DEALS. AS YOU LOOK TO DEPLOY THE REMAINING 70% OF THE FUND, ARE YOU FOCUSING MORE ON LEGACY OR CONTEMPORARY ARTISTS? WHAT FACTORS WILL INFLUENCE YOUR DECISION-MAKING?<\/strong><\/h6>\n

When we look at an artist or estate, we don\u2019t only do financial due diligence. We ask for statements from the last couple of years to see the income. But we also do brand and narrative due diligence \u2014 understanding the music, the catalog, and the lyrics of the songwriter. Is there a story about the artist? Could there be a documentary, a biopic, a TV series, or a musical?<\/p>\n

We\u2019re looking at artists whose music is older than five years, hopefully, older because you can find hidden gems. Take Kate Bush \u2014 what happened with Running Up That Hill<\/em> in Stranger Things<\/em> made it No.1, 37 years after its release.<\/p>\n

“Music is universal \u2014 if a song connects, it connects everywhere.”<\/p><\/blockquote>\n

That showcases the potential of what we\u2019re doing. Another example is Queen\u2019s Bohemian Rhapsody<\/em>, where streams went through the roof after the movie \u2014 up 600%, then stabilized at 200% above the previous streaming level.<\/p>\n

You need to showcase music to new audiences geographically as well. Previously, you could only make real money in North America, Western Europe, Australia, New Zealand, and Japan. Today, everyone is in play. Latin America is growing like crazy, then there\u2019s Southeast Asia. Russia is closed due to the Ukraine situation, but there\u2019s China and Africa, which haven\u2019t really started yet.<\/p>\n

Music is universal \u2014 if a song connects, it connects everywhere. If it\u2019s a K-pop band singing in Korean but they have great songs, they can break through. It\u2019s about feelings and emotions.<\/p>\n

We plan to buy four to six catalogs during the next four to five years, but we need to find the right ones \u2014 something where those we\u2019re investing in also believe in our journey and what we can do together.<\/p>\n

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Could you TELL US ABOUT the size of the company, in terms of workforce in 2025?<\/strong><\/h6>\n

We have a team of 15 people in London (soon to be 20) and 55 people in Stockholm dedicated to developing new projects with the artists.<\/p>\n

We need to work with the estates because artists want their legacy to continue. The three major record companies have thousands of fantastic catalogs, but they don\u2019t have enough resources to work with everything.<\/p>\n

Sometimes we collaborate with Universal, Sony, and maybe Warner in the future. It\u2019s a win-win because we help them showcase their catalog and IP.<\/p>\n

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You’ve attracted traditionally conservative investors like pension funds and sovereign wealth funds. What does their interest say about their optimism regarding the music rights landscape?<\/strong><\/h6>\n

There\u2019s been increasing investor interest in music since the shift from physical formats to digital streaming, where you have a constant flow of income.<\/p>\n

In the past, when I was at Sony in the \u201990s, the way to monetize catalogs was to do a ‘best-of’ compilation. You\u2019d go on TV to promote it or decrease its value by putting it at a lower price during sales campaigns.<\/p>\n

“We have investors from all over the world \u2014 the US, Europe, Asia, Japan, Singapore. We\u2019re really blessed.”<\/p><\/blockquote>\n

Now you can really do the math because all the data is there \u2014 from Spotify to YouTube, Apple, Amazon, etc. You can see exactly what actions you take \u2014 on social media, TikTok, or by doing a documentary on Netflix \u2014 and the results they bring. That\u2019s very interesting for investors who want to know the return on investment, and we can prove it.<\/p>\n

We have investors from all over the world \u2014 the US, Europe, Asia, Japan, Singapore. We\u2019re really blessed, and very humbled and proud of the confidence these investors have placed in us.<\/p>\n

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<\/a><\/i><\/a>
Photo credit: Johan Persson<\/figcaption><\/figure>What lessons have you learned from ABBA Voyage that will be applied to the KISS avatar show, and how much does ABBA Voyage’s success influence your strategic thinking for future deals?<\/strong><\/h6>\n

Looking at ABBA\u2019s career, it\u2019s quite amazing. They stopped making music in 1981 with The Visitors<\/em>. Then Polygram bought the rights, cleaned up the market, and released ABBA Gold<\/em>, which sparked a revival. In 1999, the Mamma Mia!<\/em> musical was released, and just nine years later, the movie came out with Meryl Streep and Pierce Brosnan. Without touring or doing much, their streaming income has constantly increased.<\/p>\n

Then we had the ABBA Museum, Mamma Mia! The Party<\/em>, which has been selling out in London for six years now. Currently, three things are happening simultaneously, all sold out: ABBA Voyage<\/em>, the Mamma Mia!<\/em> musical, and Mamma Mia! The Party<\/em>. And ABBA Gold<\/em> is the second best-selling album in UK history.<\/p>\n

“It takes time if you want to do something spectacular. That\u2019s the key learning from ABBA \u2014 don\u2019t cut corners.”<\/p><\/blockquote>\n

ABBA should be an inspiration for every artist \u2014 what they\u2019ve done through the years with great music as the foundation. Without ABBA Voyage<\/em>, which started in 2016 and premiered in 2022 after many iterations, we wouldn\u2019t be where we are. It\u2019s sold 3 million tickets, with over 1,000 concerts, and still plays to sold-out houses seven times a week in Stratford \u2014 which isn\u2019t even the epicenter of London.<\/p>\n

What we learned from ABBA Voyage<\/em> is not to cut corners \u2014 to do it in a way that blows the mind of the audience. There were many obstacles along the way, but there are also things that could be done more smoothly for future shows.<\/p>\n

For KISS, our idea is to open in Las Vegas in about two and a half to three years. It takes time if you want to do something spectacular. That\u2019s the key learning from ABBA \u2014 don\u2019t cut corners.<\/p>\n

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POPHOUSE DESCRIBES ITSELF AS HAVING AN ARTIST-CENTRIC APPROACH, FOCUSING ON THREE CENTRAL RIGHTS: PUBLISHING, RECORDED, AND NAME, IMAGE, AND LIKENESS RIGHTS. HOW DOES THIS APPROACH DIFFERENTIATE POPHOUSE FROM OTHER PLAYERS in the market?<\/strong><\/h6>\n

We have a different approach with our value-add process. Instead of buying a catalog and putting it on a shelf or treating it as a yield play where you just take the money that comes in, we want to find hidden gems that we can expose to new generations and geographies.<\/p>\n

Some investors buy catalogs as a yield play \u2014 if you buy something for 10x the current income, that means you have a 10% yield annually; if you buy it for 20x, you get a 5% yield. But we want to be responsible partners for the artists \u2014 to help create their legacy for the future. We can\u2019t do it by ourselves because we\u2019re not the experts.<\/p>\n

“Some investors buy catalogs as a yield play. But we want to be responsible partners for the artists.”<\/p><\/blockquote>\n

With KISS, we created a panel of their biggest fans worldwide. We interviewed them because the KISS Army is very important. We don\u2019t do everything they tell us, but we want to know how they feel about things so we don\u2019t make big mistakes. That\u2019s what we try to do \u2014 find the DNA of the artist, then look at what we can do with our toolbox to showcase and enhance their music.<\/p>\n

We\u2019re blessed to have Conni Jonsson from the financial world and Bj\u00f6rn Ulvaeus, one of the most creative artists, as the big owners of Pophouse. Bj\u00f6rn is even engaging with AI, exploring both its good and bad aspects.<\/p>\n

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<\/a><\/i><\/a><\/figure>HOW DO YOU STRIKE A BALANCE BETWEEN ARTISTIC INTEGRITY AND COMMERCIAL INTERESTS, ESPECIALLY WITH THE ESTATES OF ARTISTS WHO ARE NO LONGER WITH US, LIKE AVICII?<\/strong><\/h6>\n

It\u2019s all about respect. I’d worked with Avicii since 2010 when he was still called Tim Bergling and was with him until he decided to end his life. I knew his parents, and they asked me to be part of the Tim Bergling Foundation,<\/a> which donates enormous amounts to mental health causes.<\/p>\n

After he passed, his father approached me and his publisher and said he wanted to release the music that was almost finished. We were working on the album when he decided to end his life. We contacted the producers he had worked with, and they agreed to finish it, acknowledging that it would have sounded different if Avicii were alive.<\/p>\n

“We really want to be protective of what we release. There\u2019s a demand out there, but you have a responsibility not to overexpose.”<\/p><\/blockquote>\n

That\u2019s what we\u2019re doing now \u2014 trying to nurture his legacy. Releasing music on streaming platforms is easier because fans don\u2019t have to buy something \u2014 they just need a subscription. But we really want to be protective of what we release. There\u2019s a demand out there, but you have a responsibility not to overexpose.<\/p>\n

The biggest companies build franchises around their brands \u2014 like Marvel, Star Wars<\/em>, or Harry Potter<\/em>. But I think both Marvel and Star Wars<\/em> may have released too much. If you do Clone Wars<\/em> just because you can, maybe that\u2019s not the best way to go. You should go to the superfans of Star Wars<\/em> and ask them what they want, what the legacy is, and where it should go.<\/p>\n

It\u2019s about nurturing it in a way that makes it more valuable so the legacy lives on forever, rather than diluting the brand by releasing too much.<\/p>\n

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IS THERE ANYTHING ELSE WE SHOULD KNOW ABOUT THE FUNDRAISE OR YOUR PLANS FOR THE FUTURE?<\/strong><\/h6>\n

We\u2019re in discussions with a couple of artists, but I can\u2019t reveal details before we sign anything.<\/p>\n

We have a different approach to pursuing music rights deals than traditional investors. When a traditional investor comes to meet artists with a 40-page PowerPoint presentation, they mostly get suspicious. You have to talk to artists in the way that I learned for 30-35 years in my business.<\/p>\n

“We have a different approach to pursuing music rights deals than traditional investors.”<\/p><\/blockquote>\n

This understanding comes through a lifetime of experience. We believe that comprehending the music business and having experience working with artists makes the process much smoother than explaining everything from scratch.<\/p>\n

There\u2019s a parallel in private equity, when acquiring companies from founders \u2014 understanding the founder’s perspective significantly facilitates the transition.<\/p>\n

Steve Barnett sits on our advisory board and A&R committee. He has extensive experience at Sony, Columbia Records, and Capitol Records.<\/p>\n

We also have Ashley Newson, who worked with One Direction and the Spice Girls, as an advisor on our board. It\u2019s crucial that we have people who can speak the language of artists. This communication ability is essential to our success.<\/p>\n

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<\/a><\/i><\/a><\/figure>SoundExchange<\/span><\/a> was independently formed in 2003 to build a fairer, simpler, and more efficient music industry through technology, data, and advocacy. The only organization designated by the U.S. government to administer the Section 114 sound recording license, SoundExchange collects and distributes digital performance royalties on behalf of 700,000 music creators and growing.<\/em>\n\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"

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